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In the closing weeks of the presidential campaign season, Sen. John Fetterman did something different than other Democrats.
He went on Joe Rogan’s podcast, a show Democrats had been urging Vice President Kamala Harris to do — and the kind of appearance Democrats feel their candidates need to get more comfortable making in the current media environment.
But Fetterman, who built a blunt, says-what-he-means brand, said Democratic setbacks in 2024 had more to do with unpopular positions progressives promoted than any lack of communication from the party’s center-left establishment.
“It’s not even what you might say as a candidate,” Fetterman said in an interview, adding “all of the very hard-left, kind of ‘woke’ things” Republicans used in advertising this year “are unloaded on the backs of all of us in purple states, and we’re paying for all of the things that our colleagues might say in these hard blue kinds of districts.”
That’s part of Fetterman’s broader post-election message for his party. Moving forward, he says Democrats can’t get wrapped up in “freaking out” over every controversial move Trump makes, adding that has proven to be a losing formula for the party and its brand. He was speaking after Trump selected former Rep. Matt Gaetz, R-Fla., for attorney general and just before he tapped Robert F. Kennedy Jr. as his pick to run the Department of Health and Human Services.
“I’ve said this before, it’s like, clutch those pearls harder and scold louder — that’s not going to win,” said Fetterman, D-Pa. “And that’s been demonstrated in this cycle.”
In the interview, Fetterman detailed his thoughts on this month’s election, how he’s readying for his party’s life in the wilderness and whether he has interest in seeking the presidency in 2028.
The following transcript has been edited for length and clarity.
NBC NEWS: As you’re looking in the rearview mirror a little bit at the 2024 election, do you think Democrats need to change how they talk to voters? Or was what happened last week really something that came down to policy choices or people being upset over inflation, immigration, you name it?
FETTERMAN: When the election comes down to a handful of states — and I said this — it’s never going to be about money, because we had much more money than they had. And it’s not going to be about obscure white paper policies and about nuance.
I pointed out there were two very, incredibly unique situations, and one of them was the assassination [attempt]. Now think about when that’s happened in American history, of course, Lincoln and Kennedy and Reagan. But this never happened when it’s the year of an election, and when the individual survived. And he responded in a very distinctive way of “fight, fight, fight,” and it created very powerful kind of imagery. And I felt, “Hey, that’s definitely going to make things even more difficult.”
And then [Elon] Musk. Surrogates are common in our business, but someone like that is [very] different, and I’ve maintained that he can move the needle, and I do believe he did. … That’s why we’ve lost two of our colleagues in the House, and we’ve lost every row office statewide as well. And now the race is so close for my colleague and friend Bob Casey, and now that’s in the recount.
I knew the border was going to be a real issue for our party. … Wanting a secure border and realizing that it was out of control, that doesn’t mean you’re a xenophobe or you’re racist or anything. It’s just, we need a secure border.
NBC NEWS: Jumping off of that, was the result, whether you’re thinking about in Pennsylvania or nationally, was this essentially inevitable, or was there anything you think Democrats could have done differently, and this could have gone the other way?
FETTERMAN: I’ve asked that question a lot. It’s like, was it ever a winnable cycle? And I mean, who knows. But I’ve always maintained, just like in the last three cycles that it’s going to be incredibly close, that’s a fact. And it was a coin toss in 2016 and it was a coin toss of some sort in 2020 and if anything happened in our cycle here in 24 it felt more like a message that people had a choice, and it was very clear, and that gut check vote, and convincingly it put down on their side.
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If you look at the emoji for the slot machine, and you could see it — 7-7-7, that means it’s a jackpot. And they just got the 7-7-7. You got the House. Boom. They have the Senate. Boom. They’ve got the presidency. And the real jackpot is they have the Supreme Court. And now here where we are.
If that’s what you want, then you better buckle up, because here’s where we are, and it’s going to be a four-year ride, at least for two years, until there’s an inevitable level of backlash and they lose the House.
NBC NEWS: You got a lot of attention for going on Joe Rogan’s show in the last week of the campaign. I feel like we’ve gone through three presidential cycles in a row where the Democratic strategy, particularly as it relates to media, is, play it safe, don’t make any mistakes, don’t give your opponents any ammunition they could use against you. But in this modern media environment, do you think that Democrats going forward have to be willing to take more risks and really develop a media strategy that is more about going into places that might be less friendly?
FETTERMAN: It’s not even what you might say as a candidate. It might be other of our colleagues from your deep-blue districts will say those kinds of things, and then it’s like they weaponize that, and they use that against you. For all of the very hard-left, kind of “woke” things [Republicans] loaded up into the clips … are unloaded on the backs of all of us in purple states, and we’re paying for all of the things that our colleagues might say in these hard blue kinds of districts.
And that’s the business that we’re in. We can’t forget that anything you say is immediately going to be nationalized, and that it’s going to be weaponized in these kinds of states. So it’s not so much what we say or our own views, it’s what the most extreme in our party say and project that’s going to get weaponized, and it’s undeniable that’s happened.
NBC NEWS: Well, then do you feel as if some members of the Democratic Party who might not agree with some of the more extreme things that get said, have been afraid to fully confront them, out of fear of offending some part of the electorate? And is that changing?
FETTERMAN: I’m not going to pander. I’m just saying it’s like, “Hey just remember, all of the safe positions in your district, or those things you say, those will be weaponized on the backs [of] the purple states and colleagues that have to defend that. It’s like, they are running your record [in] some of these purple states as well. And that’s the concern. It’s not a criticism so much as it’s just, that’s the reality.
NBC NEWS: What is your biggest concern moving forward, and what’s kind of the biggest thing that you think Democrats need to address?
FETTERMAN: It’s like he’s the guy with the laser pointer, and we’re going to be the cat chasing around here or there. “He did that. Can you believe [it]? I can’t believe he appointed so and so.” And like, I’m not going to be that. I’m not that guy. I’m not that Democrat. Because we knew that’s what’s going to happen.
And, like, Gaetz was the ultimate troll. That’s got to be candy for him to have and watch everybody get triggered. I’ve said this before, it’s like, clutch those pearls harder and scold louder, that’s not going to win. And that’s been demonstrated in this cycle.
NBC NEWS: You brought up Gaetz, and you said that there was kind of a “God-tier” trolling element to this. Do you think among Democrats —
FETTERMAN: I mean, yes. 100%. It’s like, I know he has no respect on the Republican side as well, too. So it was just like an opportunity. … And that’s the thing. If you’re already exhausted, freaking out, and it’s not even Thanksgiving, then you really ought to pace yourselves. Because he hasn’t even been inaugurated yet. So you really have to chill out, and you’re going to have to be more discerning or discriminate on what’s going to freak you out, or what’s just trolling. Because it’s not the weather, it’s the climate now for the next four years.
NBC NEWS: So to bounce off that, has there been a conversation among Democrats that’s essentially what you’re talking about?
FETTERMAN: We just had one, literally. I emerged from a caucus lunch for that. They have. … It’s undeniable, the 7-7-7 that you America voted for is here. And if you think The Onion buying InfoWars is, you know, like, OK. Would I rather have the control of the House, Senate and the presidency, or, well, you know, The Onion bought InfoWars. Well, sick burn. Sick burn.
NBC NEWS: To put a finer point on this: Democrats now are viewing this as, look, we can’t be freaking out about every individual thing that happens like we’ve got to be measured?
FETTERMAN: That’s what I’m saying. Unless you don’t, you are going to be the cat, and he’ll be the guy with the laser pointer, and you’re going to be chasing it around the whole room. And again, I don’t understand why people just, they think freaking out [matters]. And I don’t understand. And if the sick burns really mattered, you know, here we wouldn’t be.
NBC NEWS: You mentioned Musk and his role in Pennsylvania. One of the biggest things Trump’s announced so far is this advisory committee that Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy are going to be running to look at making significant cuts to federal spending and to the federal bureaucracy. How do you think Democrats should handle this development? And what do you think that group is ultimately going to do?
FETTERMAN: Here’s the truth, the only governing force that can stop or temper that [is] going to be the bravest Republicans in the House or in the Senate. It’s not going to us because we won’t have the votes. We don’t have the votes. We’re in the minority. It’s going to come down to how much craziness, how much absurdity will the Republicans in the House or the Senate want to jam up or not. And that’s a fact because of what happened in 2024. We don’t have the votes, and they even have enough throw away votes.
NBC NEWS: Looking at your home county, Allegheny, one of the only urban areas in the country where Kamala Harris actually expanded on her share of the vote compared to Biden in 2020. This is completely against all the trends that have happened nationally. What is going on in the Pittsburgh area that caused the election results there to be different than in so many other places?
FETTERMAN: We have a lot of pride in our history about labor and about what really works. … And so I’m not surprised to know that.
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I really want to talk about this, I called them out, and I’ll do this again, because now we know the margin. To every individual that chose to throw away their votes for the Greens — [65,000] people threw their vote away on the Greens. I assume that they thought that those people were going to project their values, because that is more than twice the size of the margin that might be what cost somebody like Bob Casey and that just installed Dave McCormick for the next six years. So I’m here to call them out, and it’s like, congratulations, and you own that.
(Editor’s note: NBC News has not yet projected a winner in the Pennsylvania Senate race, which is in the middle of a recount at the moment.)
NBC NEWS: Have you spoken with McCormick at all? Do you think he’s someone you can work with?
FETTERMAN: I have not. I don’t have any personal animus. But I push back. Counting every vote, that’s not controversial. And it’s a recount. … That’s the law. And then when the law gets triggered and that gets used, then, hey, we’ve just got to wait and we know where we’re at. But it’s undeniable. It’s 26,000 votes. And how many people threw away their votes for Greens? And imagine just like what they’ve done for [Hillary] Clinton in ‘16, you’ve turned around, you never learned your lesson. And look at what you possibly may have cost people that are most likely to have your kinds of values.
NBC NEWS: Could Kamala Harris have done anything different that you think might have changed the results?
FETTERMAN: I’ll never be in that place. I mean, it’s been a pleasure to campaign with her across my state. And I’m not going to be part of like the piling on or the “you should’ves.” I’m not going to shoot on anybody at this point.
NBC NEWS: Obviously it’s early, but when you think about 2028, would you have any interest in running for president?
FETTERMAN: Nah. I would say this to anyone, never get high on your own supply. And I don’t know who I’m referencing. But yeah.
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